Curse

Kyrein · Apr 04, 2008, 05:04 AM // 05:04

tyla, your opinion is worth absolutely nothing, anet made the game the way it is so we could do these things.
your opinion about what is "degenerate" is not anet's

end of discussion unless you can come up with something intelligent

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

You've posted this exact thing time and time again over the last two pages......do you not understand what we're trying to tell you?
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK A PROFESSION SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT DO. ANET GAVE US SECONDARIES, I THINK THEY HAD THE INTENTION OF US USING THEM.
/end rant

Using them as a primary? No.
Using them as a secondary to synergise with the playstyle the primary should entale? Yes.

Quote:

And I've already pointed out in several of my posts that expertise is not the culprit to a majority of these so called "degenerate builds". An expertise nerf would only effectively remove touch rangers, nothing else worth playing depends so much on the attribute. (yes escapeway would take a hit, but they'd still survive due to the imbaness of scythes, rending touch, and escape.)

So they're still going to be able to spam Rending Touch, Pious Assault and Emerites Attack on recharge? I doubt it.
Escape should also take a hit aswell.

@Kyrein -- Who will this effect other than people who are bad at Ranger anyway? I fail to understand why you're defending degenerate play.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Apr 04, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

@Kyrein -- Who will this effect other than people who are bad at Ranger anyway? I fail to understand why you're defending degenerate play.

lol this topic i now declare a kitty topic.

on topic
how is it so bad that a person figures out that a ranger can do things for real cheap?
how is that degenerate
if you really think about it all builds are 123456 builds pretty much
R spike enough said
Magebane, the way most run it.
buring arrow hit 1 on recharge woot.
barrage, ifI need to explain this one you should un install guildwars.
plus the rangers who dont use a bow are just silly, cept thumper cause they hurt at least to casters.

i will agree though Sway needs to take a heavy hit but it shouldn't be experties that gets hit hard. We dont want anet messing with that.

but escape needs to be shot repeatedly its too spammy now.

Coloneh · Apr 04, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronos the Defiler

this has been suggested SO many times it is not even funny, but I have yet to discover why the Anet dev team has not changed expertise to only effect ranger skills.

right now we see rangers that pretty much run every attacker class..

R/W Thumper
R/P Pack Hunter
R/D Escape Scythe
R/A pretty much same as the rest
R/N toucher
I have even seen R/Rt spamming spirits

I just don't understand why it is still like this, it is a stupid mechanic :/

omg! worzorz! primary attributes synergize with secondary professions skills?

thats the point of the attribute dumb ass.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva

lol this topic i now declare a kitty topic.

on topic
how is it so bad that a person figures out that a ranger can do things for real cheap?
how is that degenerate
if you really think about it all builds are 123456 builds pretty much
R spike enough said
Magebane, the way most run it.
buring arrow hit 1 on recharge woot.
barrage, ifI need to explain this one you should un install guildwars.
plus the rangers who dont use a bow are just silly, cept thumper cause they hurt at least to casters.

i will agree though Sway needs to take a heavy hit but it shouldn't be experties that gets hit hard. We dont want anet messing with that.

but escape needs to be shot repeatedly its too spammy now.

I've discussed why it's degenerate plenty of times.
R-Spike requires alot of skill to play well. Regardless, quite strong. (See Borat's(Killed u man) thread in the HA forum)
I'm not bothered about Burning Arrow, it can annoy people due to spammability and degen pressure.
Barrage, will you explain? :3 In all seriousness, Barrage is the same as Thumpers, built for damage which Rangers shouldn't be.
Agreed on your last point. Weaponswapping out of staff while playing a Trapper sorts the D-Shot and Apply Poison spread.

I really do think I've discussed the rest to death already.

Kyrein · Apr 04, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

no, you have said it is degenerate, you have not explained why other than "it doesnt fit what I want this class to be!"

please, get out of these forums, you are too stupid to use them

Aldric · Apr 04, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

So basically saying "degenerate" over and over proves your point ?

Amy Awien · Apr 04, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

/not signed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronos the Defiler

this has been suggested SO many times it is not even funny, but I have yet to discover why the Anet dev team has not changed expertise to only effect ranger skills.

That's simple enough, because they probably want these class combos to work. Expertise was already nerfed with the release of Nightfall to reduce it's effect, and with all the Touchers, Thumpers and R/A's as well known builds, it would be a safe to assume that expertise was deliberately left to effect attack and touch skills of secondaries.

None of these R/X builds are overpowered in any way. If you fail to counter them, it is your failure (in game skill) and not the failure of the game's mechanics. None of these R/X builds perform better then the X secondaries could when run as primaries.

How does the failure of c-spacing mobs to counter other c-spacing mobs offer any solid grounds for changing the game mechanics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Once again, I say -- It's not how powerful it is. It's the fact it's degenerate. Degenerate builds should be degenerated.

How is 'degenerate' an argument? Try to define degenerate build in objective terms - without just claiming it too be 'baed' or degenerate. What measures 'degenerate'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Actually, no. I'm saying it's degenerate, because Rangers weren't ment to do that role.

That is another way of saying, "It's degenerate because I say so!", just as claiming that using a secondary profession other then for minor support is 'degenerate'.

ANet left touch and attack skills under expertise's effect, that is another way of ANet saying that rangers are not meant to be played in the way tyle salanari thinks they ought to be played.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

How is 'degenerate' an argument? Try to define degenerate build in objective terms - without just claiming it too be 'baed' or degenerate. What measures 'degenerate'?

It's not a claim.

Quote:

That is another way of saying, "It's degenerate because I say so!", just as claiming that using a secondary profession other then for minor support is 'degenerate'.

ANet left touch and attack skills under expertise's effect, that is another way of ANet saying that rangers are not meant to be played in the way tyle salanari thinks they ought to be played.

Basically you think Rangers aren't ment for condition / interrupt pressure?
Someone has already used that "It's degenerate because I say so" quote, and I have answered it. Go back a few pages. Maybe if HA had less shitty gimmicks it would be more fun. Even HoH is usually 2 R/D's versus 1 balanced. Playing against the same crap is boring. Plus Escape should end on a landing melee attack anyway, and the recharge on Rending Touch aswell. Those are the overpowered parts of the build, and just because there is a counter doesn't mean it's not imba.

Bloodspike is degenerate, and since people do use it, and there are many different skill changes possible, it's quite hard to manage. Like all these Ranger/X gimmicks.

How many times do I need to explain that degenerate builds deserve to die?

@Kyrein -- What points have you come up with? If you want to go melee you should play a Warrior, Dervish or 'Sin, as I have already said. Using these secondary classes as a primary is extremely degenerate as I have said over and over, and degenerate builds need to die. Because they're no fun to play against and the game gets stagnant after a while. Look at HA. Soon this crap will be in GvG aswell.

Oh yeah, you have also not provided a decent argument to why it's not degenerate. So stop with that "You are too stupid to use the forums" bollocks. Provide a half-valid argument.

Pyro maniac · Apr 04, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

A primary profession used for energy management CAN and WILL be abused. (I think this is a quote form Ensign as well).
Look at Soul Reaping and Leadership and Expertise ..

The problem with expertise and why it allows degenerate builds is it energy management. You can simply bash buttons on recharge while being effective.
Shock Axe is the best known cookie-cutter build around, however it isn't categorized as a 'degenerate' build, simply because you have to think while using it. The reason why you have to think while using it, is because you don't have got (nearly) infinite recourses available (energy). Expertise does allow that.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

A primary profession used for energy management CAN and WILL be abused. (I think this is a quote form Ensign as well).
Look at Soul Reaping and Leadership and Expertise ..

The problem with expertise and why it allows degenerate builds is it energy management. You can simply bash buttons on recharge while being effective.
Shock Axe is the best known cookie-cutter build around, however it isn't categorized as a 'degenerate' build, simply because you have to think while using it. The reason why you have to think while using it, is because you don't have got (nearly) infinite recourses available (energy). Expertise does allow that.

Agreed here. But really, I don't see much abuse outside of PvE for Soul Reaping. Leadership is just well...broken... Same for Expertise in a word. Getting rid of the secondary profession manipulation would be a good start, though.

But on Shock Axe -- it's easily the strongest Axe template around. Spikes, utility, it's got it all. It follows the proper way to play a Warrior and requires a decent amount of skill to be able to play at it's full potential.

Moloch Vein · Apr 04, 2008, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK A PROFESSION SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT DO. ANET GAVE US SECONDARIES, I THINK THEY HAD THE INTENTION OF US USING THEM.

Alright, I'm going to have to side with Tyla on this one. Mostly. And, since I'm a little more clever and pedagogic than he or she is, I'm going to explain my position in a way that is understandable.

If a primary class can do the job of another primary class, using this class' skills, and do it better... if an R/W can make a better hammer warrior than a Warrior, and if an R/N can make a better necromancer toucher than a Necromancer... then there is a problem with the design of the game.

One more thing... no class in the game is as fundamentally broken as the Ranger. The Soul Reaping analogy does not work.

Soul Reaping provides a conditional superiority. It tells you, if things die with enough frequency, you might be able to outperform other classes at their own game. Is this bad? Maybe. However, Expertise provides an absolute superiority. As an example, R/N vampire touchers are always better than Necromancer touchers. I'm just using this example because it is so blatant, not because it's the most important. A Necromancer could never run the N portion of an R/N toucher build... because he would run out of energy. Now, that's irony, isn't it?

Expertise should be changed.

Pyro maniac · Apr 04, 2008, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Agreed here. But really, I don't see much abuse outside of PvE for Soul Reaping.

They finally fixed it now

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Leadership is just well...broken... Same for Expertise in a word. Getting rid of the secondary profession manipulation would be a good start, though.

This is what they've done in the past. Leadership is broken, but instead of fixing the primary they tried to fix it with timers to the skills: Watch Yourself and Go For The Eyes.
Same with Rangers, they tried to fix thumpers in the past with nerfing Irresistible Blow. At the moment there are too many skills/templates that need to be nerfed as it's better to kill the attribute for secondaries then nerfing the skills which will produce even more whining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

But on Shock Axe -- it's easily the strongest Axe template around. Spikes, utility, it's got it all. It follows the proper way to play a Warrior and requires a decent amount of skill to be able to play at it's full potential.

That, it's multi-dimensional and you can't spam it. You need to wait to build up your adrenaline, you can't spam shock, you need to wait for windows of opportunity to release your adrenaline spike. Those things allow it to be the most effective and damaging template available. R/D, R/W, R/P are just button mashers that take no skill and can simply deal more damage (one dimensional) then that shock-axe. That needs to stop.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 04, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva

how is it so bad that a person figures out that a ranger can do things for real cheap?
how is that degenerate

It's not, at all. As said throughout this topic - secondaries are a brilliant idea on Anet's part. But bars like R/D's and thumpers are degenerate and need to die. Why, you ask? Because any bar that can be effective whilst being played by a 10yr old who has a spasm in his mouse holding hand is not good for the game.

Quote:

if you really think about it all builds are 123456 builds pretty much

Holy.. shit...

Post of the year. Epic stuff.

Quote:

R spike enough said
Magebane, the way most run it.
buring arrow hit 1 on recharge woot.

?

Quote:

barrage, ifI need to explain this one you should un install guildwars.

What are you trying to explain?

Quote:

plus the rangers who dont use a bow are just silly, cept thumper cause they hurt at least to casters.

So now you just contradicted yourself, and managed to come out with a final opinion that is.. wrong.

Please, stop posting. Every post you make is just ridiculously clueless. The only times you actually hint at being right, is when you repeat what was said previously by another poster.

Amy Awien · Apr 04, 2008, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

It's not a claim.

No? It's more like ... an opinion. Yours.

Quote:

Basically you think Rangers aren't ment for condition / interrupt pressure?

Indeed, basically I think Rangers don't need to be restricted to condition and interrupts - the archetypal ranger is not limited to archery - and even their own attribute lines and skills offer other uses then conditions and interrupts. Pets and traps have already been mentioned as example

Quote:

Someone has already used that "It's degenerate because I say so" quote, and I have answered it.

You've hardly answered it, you've narrowed it donw to calling the use of a secondary 'degenerate'. But that still isn't justified in any way, combining primary and secondary professions is a major concept of GW.

Quote:

How many times do I need to explain that degenerate builds deserve to die?

The problem is with your (style of) classifications, what is or what isn't 'degenerate' and what is 'meant to' is rather arbitrary and personal.
If certain builds become 'no fun to play against' because they are overpowered it is more constructive to look at how these overpowered builds can be toned down without exterminating every possibility of diversity and versatility.

Darkobra · Apr 04, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Holy.. shit...

Post of the year. Epic stuff.

I know. Because he was right. When was the last time you actually STRUGGLED with Guild Wars?

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No? It's more like ... an opinion. Yours.

It's not a claim, not an opinion. A fact. The skill level needed for the build, the displacement of how the Ranger was supposed to be played anyway...
That, is just the same reason Ranger Turret was nerfed -- along with it being overpowered. Think R/D-way.

Quote:

Indeed, basically I think Rangers don't need to be restricted to condition and interrupts - the archetypal ranger is not limited to archery - and even their own attribute lines and skills offer other uses then conditions and interrupts. Pets and traps have already been mentioned as example

Because traps aren't condition pressure? Pets are just stupidity on the devs' side, cool to have, yeah, but a stupid thing.

Quote:

You've hardly answered it, you've narrowed it donw to calling the use of a secondary 'degenerate'. But that still isn't justified in any way, combining primary and secondary professions is a major concept of GW.

It isn't really combining the secondary profession with the primary. It's becoming the primary via the secondary.

Quote:

The problem is with your (style of) classifications, what is or what isn't 'degenerate' and what is 'meant to' is rather arbitrary and personal.
If certain builds become 'no fun to play against' because they are overpowered it is more constructive to look at how these overpowered builds can be toned down without exterminating every possibility of diversity and versatility.

Versatility? Turning Rangers into 1-dimensional crap isn't versatility, that's takking the versatility away.

As I have said before aswell, things like this, even if it wasn't overpowered or degenerate should be changed. If not? The game gets stagnant. PvP becomes more PvE because it becomes more of the repetetive crap, with noone using builds that take minimal effort.

Plus "finding a counter" doesn't mean something shouldn't be changed because of imbalanced or degenerate. It means bar space gets cramped, which promotes build versus build, which equals rock paper scissors, which equals build wars and taking the essence of skill away from PvP.

Degenerate builds, again should die. Skillless, inflexible pieces of crap that are boring to play against.

Seriously, how long do I need to continue this to get it out of your people's thick skulls?

@Darkobra -- GvG, where skill determines victory. HA, where skill should determine victory.

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Alright, I'm going to have to side with Tyla on this one. Mostly. And, since I'm a little more clever and pedagogic than he or she is, I'm going to explain my position in a way that is understandable.

If a primary class can do the job of another primary class, using this class' skills, and do it better... if an R/W can make a better hammer warrior than a Warrior, and if an R/N can make a better necromancer toucher than a Necromancer... then there is a problem with the design of the game.

One more thing... no class in the game is as fundamentally broken as the Ranger. The Soul Reaping analogy does not work.

Soul Reaping provides a conditional superiority. It tells you, if things die with enough frequency, you might be able to outperform other classes at their own game. Is this bad? Maybe. However, Expertise provides an absolute superiority. As an example, R/N vampire touchers are always better than Necromancer touchers. I'm just using this example because it is so blatant, not because it's the most important. A Necromancer could never run the N portion of an R/N toucher build... because he would run out of energy. Now, that's irony, isn't it?

Expertise should be changed.

Can people not read the thread?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Thumpers and pack hunters rely on Beast Mastery not expertise...

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Maybe a Warrior should try using a 33% unstripable IAS/Speed buff (Rampage as One), an on call daze (Bestial mauling), and extra damage added in seperate packets (pet).....none of those are expertise linked, idk why you want to change expertise to fix thumpers that only use one warrior skill that requires energy (crushing blow)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

And I've already pointed out in several of my posts that expertise is not the culprit to a majority of these so called "degenerate builds". An expertise nerf would only effectively remove touch rangers, nothing else worth playing depends so much on the attribute...

Your example of warriors is moot, Would you like me to reiterate why? And your vision of the necro mancer is extreamly far off. The only reason you could say a Touch ranger is better than a necro primary is because blood magic is fairly weak as a whole and is in need of a complete overhaul.

And Touch rangers are little more than a nuasance, a simple skill functionality change would break them, but I still don't see why they should effect you. And again I'm saying this not because I don't think these builds deserve to get nerfed, but that Expertise is NOT THE PROBLEM. Why should an entire profession die when several skills can be tweaked to remove Tyla's so called "Degenerate crap"?

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Your example of warriors is moot, Would you like me to reiterate why? And your vision of the necro mancer is extreamly far off. The only reason you could say a Touch ranger is better than a necro primary is because blood magic is fairly weak as a whole and is in need of a complete overhaul.

And Touch rangers are little more than a nuasance, a simple skill functionality change would break them, but I still don't see why they should effect you. And again I'm saying this not because I don't think these builds deserve to get nerfed, but that Expertise is NOT THE PROBLEM. Why should an entire profession die when several skills can be tweaked to remove Tyla's so called "Degenerate crap"?

Expertise nerf won't sort out Packhunters or RaO's, no. But it will get rid of the other pieces of crap. RaO limited to only Ranger skills. RaO's screwed.
And how does the ENTIRE profession die? People who understand the proper use of a Ranger will still be there.

Just the crap removed. If you think Rangers are useless after this nerf if it takes place, stop being a scrub.

payne · Apr 04, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Puppeteer

you must be very lucky if you get a snare ele or cripshot in your AB team

honored more like :P

/unsigned for obvious reasons its just a fail!